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5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts

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3 months 2 weeks ago - 3 months 2 weeks ago #4086 by Bacchus
5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts was created by Bacchus
Hi guys, hope youse are all keeping well.
I'm hoping to pick peoples brains here. I've a brew planned for either tomorrow or Wednesday ( hopefully tomorrow ). I'm doing an IPA and plan to treat the liquor. Something I have never had the need to do. However, it's something I want to try out, if nothing else, just to see and experiment with. I've done all the research etc., god have I done the research ( If I read one more paragraph on ions, positive, negative or otherwise....I may just have to hurt someone...lol ). Messed about with the beersmith water tool etc. The only treatment, was using a 5.2 stabilising tablet during mash in.
Anyway...My question is about the PH in the mash...After treating the water to whatever the chosen target profile is, will the mash PH stabilise itself to 5.2 due to the treatment or do I carry on using the stab. tabs. or something entirely different altogether?
Last edit: 3 months 2 weeks ago by Bacchus.

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3 months 1 week ago #4087 by Gash
Replied by Gash on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
I was just about to do a video, well I have done half of it, but my pH meter started playing up..
pH.. So you start with a water report, you try and get one from the water authorities, local aquarium or even swimming pool or supply shop.
You then use software to try and estimate what salts you'll need to bring the ph in line, depending on beer style that can be anywhere from 4-6 but most will say 5,2-5.6 as a standard.
You mix in the salts, add your grain, wait 10mins, pull a sample, chill it a bit, as per usual around 20c is a good test temp, though some pH meters will have different temperature adjustments.
You can use lactic acid or acid malt in your grain bill as well if thats your want or needed.
Usual salts are Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum), Epsom Salts, Baking Soda, Chalk.
If your readings are way out you can try and adjust, but by the time you do that, mix them in, wait another 10mins to take a reading, 99% of your mash is going to be done, it sort becomes a useless step. So what you do is take notes and adjust for next time. Either up or Down of course.

There is another way if you can be bothered step mashing, so you mash in under mash temp, so maybe protein rest temps, wait your tens mins and adjust there, once you get it right you then raise to your mash temp, can be difficult in some situations.

People used to recommend 5.2 adjust but they seem to be against it these days

pH will continue to change through the whole process, by the time the beer hits the bottle its usually around 4-ish.

umm think thats most of it.

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3 months 1 week ago #4088 by Gash
Replied by Gash on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
no harm in using 5.2 stabiliser if you have it there though

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3 months 1 week ago #4089 by Finnroo
Replied by Finnroo on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
So , if your doing an IPA then Gypsum is the only one I would use to start with, and I say that because salts apart from slightly changing your ph also affect the favour profile. Gypsum increases the perceived bitterness of the beer and sits well with an IPAs etc. Just a level tea spoon into your mash with your 5.2 stabliser and your good to go. Personally I piss about with lactic acid to drop the ph.
Its just a small adjustment but it will make a difference you can taste and follow. As Gash said in his reply take notes on every brew, so important.
With the other salts, CaCl2 rounds out the malty flavor and mouth feel which is great for that malt forward beer but too much can leave a slight salty taste. Chalk raises the ph quite a bit and is good in a stout where your grains are dark and acidic. but once again not too much. Great question hope this helps a bit. Cheers enjoy your brew day.

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3 months 6 days ago #4101 by Bacchus
Replied by Bacchus on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
Cheers Gash, Wow mate, that's a brain pick and a half..and very much appreciated.
Getting my own water profile was the the first thing I did...in fact, our water service ( Northern Ireland water service ) legally, has to annually publish its water analysis ( usually Jan. ) and additionally especially for brewers and states it on the report all the salts. However for some reason they didn't publish the carbonates ppm this year...I emailed them requesting those findings..sorted very quickly. As a consequence, in the email they sent, told me they have now updated their report to include the carbonate level..yee haa..:-).
Don't talk to about PH meters...mine did exactly same mate...cheap yellow chinese import ( S***e )..I normally calibibrate with the lower 6.0 solution, but it kept going way off with just tap water, compared to a universal indicator.
During my last order last week I specifically ordered, other than grain etc. all the treatment salts i'd need. I have to say at this point, the whole chemistry and biological processes in making beer and especially good beer really pricks the scientific part of my brain...to para-quote Doc. Brown in Back to the future...' I'm a student of all sciences ' ..lol. Good name for a beer though for a brown ale ..' Doc. Browns ale '..lol.
Mate, I don't have the equipment...YET...for step mashing. Although thats about to change..I have 5 X 88l pub kegs, two of which I depressurised and have taken the top off two off them for a HLT and main wort boiler during the weekend. The next step is step drilling for the taps ( I have watched your vid on that ). I'm switching from electric to propane Unfortunately that's going to have to wait....Mini me is off school for the summer, and we all know trips out and two weeks away and new school uniform drain the bank account big time.

Why are the 5.2 stabilisers out of fashion these days, you didn't mention?

That was one of questions about PH levels to myself and thought, surely they have to change.

Umm..I think that's most of it for to me too mate. Gash, Thank you big lad for all the instructional videos. Mate...your'e a natural presenter. Though I have to say...the appearances of your wee girl outshone you...funny as F.

Again big lad..thank you

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3 months 6 days ago #4102 by Bacchus
Replied by Bacchus on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
Finn, Thank you...Did what you suggested with the gypsum and the 5.2. Was thinking of ' Burtonising ' my liquor. But tried your way. However, thought afterwards, your water profile is likely to be different. If the pre-progammed water profiles are to be believed in Beersmith 2, we here in Belfast have similar profile to Dublin, give or take a point something...say 0.2 to 0.4 sort of thing across the minerals, both mountain water into reservoirs and same substrates. I'm using gashs zombie lust recipe as a base recipe for experimentation
Just a bit of useless information for you...during the Pangaea period in the Earths history and due to plate tectonics...Ireland used to be where Jamaica roughly is now...Yeah man....What's that song....' Pass the duchy 'pon' the left hand side....again...yeah man..;-)...LOL.
Anyway...You take care..and thank you very much...to both yourself and gash. Keep up the good work...and as Benjamin Franklin said, as you know, which I love..' Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy '. lol
Mate, you take care. Slainte
The following user(s) said Thank You: Finnroo

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3 months 6 days ago - 3 months 6 days ago #4103 by Finnroo
Replied by Finnroo on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
Thanks so much for your awesome post. So, its only 6pm here in NZ but im spent so want to continue with this tomorrow. Going to bed now with my Jameson stout cask mates whiskey which I love after 4 pints of brown ale home brew and my book of Irish mythology and my book on how the mighty Finn lost his Bride to was it Fergus? My Irish mythology goes back to after the flood(Noah) and finishes with the Roman empire and st Patrick. But Queen Sotia came from an Egyptian father and married a king from the Iberian area.( Spain)I think his name was King Mill, of the Milesians. They were Gaelic.
Gaeldals

They went to Ireland and Battled with the Tuatha de Dannan, Queen Soctia was killed. The Tuatha de Dannan went under ground and became the Faery folk, And the Gaelic Mills became the Irish folk. And bla bla bla bla. went to Dalradia and made it Scotland.

And what has this ramble got to do with an IPA....Im not sure lol, but after a good sleep Ill get to it and get back to you , Slainte
Last edit: 3 months 6 days ago by Finnroo.

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3 months 5 days ago #4105 by Gash
Replied by Gash on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
Many question how a pH stabiliser actually works, or if it does work how effective it is. How does it distinguish if it needs to higher or lower? I haven't done any tests myself. Maybe its the name thats deceptive. I could see how they could make an average mix to suit most "city" water.

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3 months 5 days ago #4106 by Finnroo
Replied by Finnroo on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
Hardness of Drinking Water
Water that contains high amounts of calcium and/or magnesium is considered hard, and water with low amounts is soft. Water hardness is determined by the level of calcium carbonate in water (in milligrams per liter) [11]:

Soft = 0-60 mg CaCO3/L
Moderately hard = 61-120 mg CaCO3/L
Hard = 121-180 mg CaCO3/L
Very hard >180 mg CaCO3/L

So I think and I say think a good start is a bit of CaSO4 Gypsum as your water is Hard and Alkaline and lacking Sulphates so should be good. I also think your mash will tend to be high so hence the stabilizer 5.2
Im very much learning myself but starting to get a handle on it and im very keen to hear back on how your IPA went mate. cheers

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3 months 5 days ago #4108 by Gash
Replied by Gash on topic 5.2 PH Stabilser and mineral salts
5.2 stabiliser is a buffer, so its not supposed to be used to change your pH but stabilise it. So you try and get your ph in that range 5-5.6 or something and 5.2 will help keep it there. Pretty sure thats how its supposed to work rather than some of the claims it makes, makes it sound lie it fixes things.

Heres a piece from a website I found.

pH Buffers
by Bill Reeder
Separator


One of the least understood parts of brewing is making water adjustments. Homebrewers can make beer that tastes great just by using tap water, however when a person wants to take brewing to the next level, water adjustments is the place to begin. Mash pH is critical in getting the best possible efficiency out of brewing grains. In order to convert the stored starches in grains into fermentable sugars, enzymes must begin breaking the starches apart. In order to do this the enzymes need to be at the right temperature and the correct pH.

Many brewers decide to use acids and bases in order to get their mash pH to the correct level (right around 5.2). The easiest way to do this, for the non chemistry minded individual, is to use a pH buffer that will hold the pH right where the brewer wants it. This is where Five Star’s pH stabilizer comes in.

Equilibrium is where the pH of a solution becomes constant. If a person adds more acid or base, the mixture will reach equilibrium again (where the hydrogen ions are in a constant back and forth battle that ends in a constant pH). If a person wants to, by using a buffer, he or she can lock this equilibrium into a specific pH. pH is essentially a measure of how many free hydrogen ions are in a solution.

Buffers act by utilizing conjugate pairs. If we think in every day terms and look at HCl or hydrochloric acid, we can imagine throwing the acid into water and the first thing that happens is that the hydrogen ion will leave the chloride ion. This will result in an H+ ion and a Cl- ion. HCl is an acid, however the resulting Cl- is now a base (called the conjugate base), meaning it is now a hydrogen ion acceptor, as oppose to the HCl being a hydrogen ion donor.

The basis behind a buffer is that if a person adds an equal amount of acid (HCl) and conjugate base (Cl-) then a person creates a buffer. If a new hydrogen ion is introduced, equilibrium will continue as the hydrogen ion binds to the Cl-. This is best seen in weaker acids such as Phosphoric acid (as in Five Star’s pH stabilizer).

While HCl is a mono-protic acid (as in only one H+ to donate), Phosphoric acid is a tri-protic acid (H3PO4, see picture), where it has three hydrogen ions to potentially donate. Once one hydrogen ion is lost from Phosphoric acid, the resulting conjugate base (H2PO4-) can now be an acid (as it still has a possible two hydrogen ions to donate) or it can act as a base (it wouldn’t mind getting it’s lost hydrogen ion back). Again, if this resulting conjugate base acts as an acid and gets rid of another hydrogen ion, it’s resulting conjugate base (HPO42-) can again lose another hydrogen ion (although not likely to lose it’s third) or it can accept its lost hydrogen ion as a base would do.

The end result is that by adding varying amounts of acids and the resulting conjugate bases, a person can create a buffer solution that will lock in a specific pH. If a new hydrogen ion is added to the solution, on of the conjugate bases will bind to it and in sense neutralize it, maintaining the appropriate pH. If a base is added, such as a hydroxide ion (OH-) then a hydrogen ion will be released from one of the acids in order to neutralize the hydroxide ion, all the while maintaining the pH where needed.

This all seems pretty in depth, although this isn’t even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to acid-base reactions and pH, the fact is that by adding one tablespoon of pH stabilizer will lock the mash pH to 5.2 which is where the amylase enzymes are the happiest. If adding a tablespoon of a something sounds too easy, by all means, grab a pH meter and some acids and bases and see how it works.


This article was published on Thursday May 27, 2010.

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Drunken Ramblings

Finnroo's Avatar Finnroo - Mon 14 Oct - 06:03

Niiiice new font strip thingy at the top. Very fresh :D

Navsingh - Sun 13 Oct - 13:06

Hi Gash,i did your Choc Vanilla stout recipe. I added 2 vanilla beans in the boil and nothing later. Tasted it yesterday and it was more coffee flavour than choc and no hint of vanilla. what should i do. should i add 50g on Vanilla ext in the keg?

Finnroo's Avatar Finnroo - Wed 9 Oct - 15:51

Note to self for brew day tomorrow. Plug phone into the power so that one hour doesnt turn into 1.5 hours. :O

Gash - Tue 8 Oct - 07:38

It takes about 10 days with a good yeast pitch, but you can use Kveik yeast and ferment at 35c if possible and have it done in under 7 days. Cheers!

Navsingh - Mon 7 Oct - 01:41

Hi guys, i will be brewing coopers neipa in few days. Can you plz tell me minimum how many days it was fermented. Im under pressure as i have to fill up few kegs for my Birthday party.

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